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 Post subject: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 22
hi simon
the black forms are attatched to the steel frames by 1/4 " roof screws let in and epoxied over
the yellow forms are a work in progress and i plan to do the 4 corner's with these
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concrete slab finally placed a week ago... quick grind yesterday
course of fired brick and ramming next week
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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am
Posts: 85
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Hi Homeless,

Good sturdy looking forms you've got there - I'm sure they'll do the job nicely. Those Z-bars really are the right tool for the job.. can you tell me what they cost? I've been planning to use plain threaded rod in mine, but I'm beginning to think the Z-bars might be a better choice.

That slab looks the duck's guts, too! 8) Is it just wet in those photos, or have you applied a gloss sealant?

You'll have to describe what it is you're building, I don't think I've seen it explained anywhere ;)

Cheers,
-s-

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Simon.

The adventures of an owner-builder in the Tallarook Ranges


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 22
simon
I got the z bars from
http://www.actech.com.au/zbar.htm
?? 3 mt length $29.24
?? nuts $3.98
they were very good to deal with and ok price
looked for ages on fleabay with no luck

yeah tricked you slab was wet :lol:
we plan on acid staining after light grind
then sealing with commercial wax sealers rather than poly #*#/ ureathane type sealers

the design is really simple straight forward rectangle with hip roof
it needs to be fire defensive and simple to build , not too complex to detail :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am
Posts: 85
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks for the prices and the URL, I'll look into them :)

If that slab is just wet, then it looks pretty bloody good to me - nice and level, much more so than mine. I've got a dip in the middle which at the moment is a puddle :oops:

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Simon.

The adventures of an owner-builder in the Tallarook Ranges


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 Post subject: Almost Ready
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 22
Its been a long time in the planning but finally ready to erect forms
Have done it a million times in my head not once for real :lol:
so hope all goes to plan
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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am
Posts: 85
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Watching with interest :D

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The adventures of an owner-builder in the Tallarook Ranges


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:51 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 179
Location: Blue Mountains
Homeless,
Great to see things starting to take shape. The row of bricks looks like a nice solution to positioning your forms and getting the separation of the earth walls from the ground.

I look forward to seeing the progress.
Bluey.


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:13 am 
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Posts: 22
:o OMG
First effort Thursday set bottom forms in the morning :)
metered and mixed calculated amount of material midday :D
rammed first courses of formwork mid afternoon 8)
erected next courses , rammed and improvised through rain and dark till midnight :shock:
My arms were sore to touch every muscle ached and pained it would have to rate as the toughest days work in my life :shock: :shock: :shock:

was it mixed too dry ? , would the incessant rain from midnight wash it all away? ,had i packed it hard enough? have i had enough sleep ?
OMG

following morning must strip the forms :| :? :roll:
Big job in itself but the result i rate as 85%
some tear out on some fancy detailing
bit of bulging but all things considered ...pleasant surprise 8)

the last 48 hours a bit of a blur
alterations made to deal with tear out but now about to start next corner with a bit of practical experience

as time allows i will edit this post by adding the appropriate images but too busy right now :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:51 pm
Posts: 104
Location: Tungkillo, South Australia
Congratulations on getting a start, here's hoping it won't be long before you're no longer "homeless".


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am
Posts: 85
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Excellent 8) Can't wait to see the photo's and to hear more details :)

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Simon.

The adventures of an owner-builder in the Tallarook Ranges


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 179
Location: Blue Mountains
Great to hear that you have made a start. I reckon the fact that rammed earth is such hard work makes it all the more rewarding in the end. Just don't break yourself in the process! I once managed to get two panels done on consecutive days but I quickly learnt that I needed to have a break and work on something else (or better still spend a day in the office) to recover after each day of ramming.

Can't wait for pic's,
Bluey


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm
Posts: 22
Brief opportunity to link these photos from last week ...
hope the number of photos are not a problem but i am short on time must get going

Morning Initial setup of forms

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midday metering and mixing

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Ramming into twilight and on to midnight

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Next morning before and after stripping

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Conclusions
Rotary hoeing provided excellent mixing , but needed better depth control .... corrected now 8)
Mix was too dry ... takes too long to compact :idea:
Detailing on end shutters and external corners caused some tearout.... profiles now altered to suit :wink:
Bracing of end shutters and their dynamic effect on formwork panels now better understood :roll:
yellow discoloration and spray paint on wall from formwork ... nextime :oops:
calculations of volumes of materials to mix now known ...
i was allowing 1 m3 rammed wall = 1.6 m3 loose material but turned out to be more like 1m3 = 1.3 m3 loose :shock:

all in all i consider it 85% result which i am happy with as it was the first practical experience with the technique. :D
i will be using form oil with the next section as these forms may need some sealing of the faces :|
so off now to mix the next batch :)
with any luck the 4 corners should be up by the weeks end


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:25 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am
Posts: 85
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Homeless,

Great photos, love seeing your progress! 8) It's fantastic to see another rammed earth structure going up, I'm excited for you! :lol:

A few questions if I may...

homeless wrote:
Mix was too dry ... takes too long to compact :idea:


Can you describe how dry is "too dry" and how the mix feels when it's right?

homeless wrote:
Detailing on end shutters and external corners caused some tearout.... profiles now altered to suit


What was it about your end shutters which caused the tearout? I'm in the process of building mine now, and I'd like to avoid as much tearout as I can so it would be useful to know what to look out for.

homeless wrote:
Bracing of end shutters and their dynamic effect on formwork panels now better understood


From the photos, it looks as if you've placed your end shutters against the z-bars, is this correct? I did this when I rammed my little test block, and found that ramming the initial layers below the level of the first bar caused the shutter to push off vertical (which was then impossible to correct). Is this the sort of thing you had to deal with?

homeless wrote:
calculations of volumes of materials to mix now known ...
i was allowing 1 m3 rammed wall = 1.6 m3 loose material but turned out to be more like 1m3 = 1.3 m3 loose


I've been doing these sums myself recently, basing my maths off Bluey's 1.75:1 loose:rammed ratio. It seems that your material is a lot more dense to begin with, if you're only using 1.3m3 loose material to ram 1.0m3 of wall. Do you think this is related to the moisture level (a dry mix not compacting as much) or is it that no two soils are alike? :lol:

I'm also interested to know what your cement to soil ratio is, and how you calculated it. I can't find any reference to the volume of cement contained in a 20kg bag, so I'm struggling to accurately determine the ratio of bags per m3 of soil since I can't weigh my soil. Any tips here would be appreciated ;)

Again, love seeing your progress. Awesome work 8)

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Simon.

The adventures of an owner-builder in the Tallarook Ranges


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Posts: 22
Can you describe how dry is "too dry" and how the mix feels when it's right?

Hard one as it changes throughout the process. Starts damp from stack
( our stack has been in place 1 year covered by plastic up till summer)
Placed on mixing slab and hoed level to produce even bed for addition of cement ( off white) drying all the time
improved depth control on rotary hoe worked well
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now keeping it covered as much as possible
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Add cement and mix through drying noticeably now but still mold-able
Loaded into truck and delivered to site kept covered continues to dry throughout the ramming process
Seems to me ideally would load into truck just a little too moist would be ideal perhaps extra moisture and mixing can be done in tipper body as day goes by
Well that's the theory I'm going with right now but time will tell
ps.today started with (1 m3 ) it seeming too damp but by the end of the day (6hrs mixed) it was approaching too dry :?


What was it about your end shutters which caused the tearout? I'm in the process of building mine now, and I'd like to avoid as much tearout as I can so it would be useful to know what to look out for.

i think it does not like obtuse ???? right angles anything too tight turns???
this is what i used for external corner ..... too fancy so planed off the ogee bits :oops:
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bevels seem good bit early too tell yet still to strip forms after changes have been made
but original end shutters fairly interesting
before changes
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after changes (however i did plane the bevel more than shown in this image)
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From the photos, it looks as if you've placed your end shutters against the z-bars, is this correct? I did this when I rammed my little test block, and found that ramming the initial layers below the level of the first bar caused the shutter to push off vertical (which was then impossible to correct). Is this the sort of thing you had to deal with?

pretty much .... however i did not realize the relationship between the end shutter , form panel and the corner join
ie. as the pressure moves the end shutter outward the panel connected to the shutter moves also the result being the corner join tends to open up :?
end bracing and angles attached to the base of the end shutters seemed to solve that problem whatever method works just dont allow end shutter any movement :wink:


I've been doing these sums myself recently, basing my maths off Bluey's 1.75:1 loose:rammed ratio. It seems that your material is a lot more dense to begin with, if you're only using 1.3m3 loose material to ram 1.0m3 of wall. Do you think this is related to the moisture level (a dry mix not compacting as much) or is it that no two soils are alike? :lol:

our material has been in a heap for nearly 12 mths ... compacting all the time .. it is dug out with excavator which can dig without much disturbance so what comes out is pretty solid and its about 10- 15 % clay with quartz pebble and sand :wink:
i have previously used it in stabilized pressed brick with excellent results

I'm also interested to know what your cement to soil ratio is, and how you calculated it. I can't find any reference to the volume of cement contained in a 20kg bag, so I'm struggling to accurately determine the ratio of bags per m3 of soil since I can't weigh my soil. Any tips here would be appreciated ;)

i have been using middletons observations
Calculations on materials
1m3 of RE wall requires 1.6 m3 loose soil
@ 8% cement loose vol = 0.08 m3 cement
/ m3 of loose earth
Therefore 0.128 m3 for ea m3 of wall
Cement = 1500 kgs / m3

Our job @ 2.4 m high walls without cut outs for windows and doors = 39 m3 x .13
= 7.6 ton of cement :?

this is how i am metering :idea:
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seemed to work ok today only had 1 wheel barrow left over 8)

these few images show the on site material handling process
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tomorrow we shall strip the forms and see the results... fingers crossed its better than the first attempt :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Bog Ugly
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:29 am
Posts: 179
Location: Blue Mountains
Looks like I have been typing at the same time as Homeless. Sorry if this info seems out of context but it is too late tonight to go over it again.

Homeless,
Great work on the walls. That rotary hoe looks like it will achieve a very thorough mix.

Hopefully you don't mind me putting in my 2 cents worth about Simon's questions. There are now so many rammed earth threads to choose from.

Quote:
Can you describe how dry is "too dry" and how the mix feels when it's right?


With my very fine soil (almost no gravel) when I am mixing it it needs to look damp but when I dump a Bobcat bucket load on the ground as part of the mixing it should still break apart/crack into small clumps, not just one big blob. On the other hand if it is too dry it just stays real powdery. When you start to ram it you will find out what the mix is like. Too wet and it will not compact solid, you compact a bit and then when you move on the first bit starts to rise up. Too dry and the soil keeps bouncing up above the rammer head and not staying compacted. I did not bother too much with removing layers if they were not quite right just made sure that I adjusted the mix before putting in the next layer. In the end the only difference that you can notice with the not quite right layer is the a wet one may stick a little to the formwork and a dry one may be a little less compacted. Overall minimal visible difference.

Having said all of that I did have quite a few test runs before starting out for real so I had the mixing fairly down pat. You dont need to do much for a test run. Just some small blocks will do.

Quote:
What was it about your end shutters which caused the tearout? I'm in the process of building mine now, and I'd like to avoid as much tearout as I can so it would be useful to know what to look out for.


Anywhere the earth can get trapped behind an edge or any 90 degree junction will cause tearout. Initially I bought the 45 degree fillets for the columns from the hardware store but since they have the sharp edges taken off it leaves a tiny 90 deg corner. I ended up making my own with sharp edges and even found that running a bead of silicon along where they join the column made a huge difference. You obviously cannot get a perfect seal with the forms when they clamp on so you just need to make sure that you remove the forms while the column is still braced and then you can trim off any overhanging bits of earth that get caught behiind the fillet before romoving the column. It also helps if you tip the column directly back away from the end of the wall so it doesn't catch on the wall edges. I will hopefully draw some of this up and post it on your thread Simon if it does not make sense now. :?

Quote:
I can't find any reference to the volume of cement contained in a 20kg bag


I found that a 20kg bag of off-white cement practically fills a 20 litre Handy Pail bucket. Since 1000L is equal to a cubic metre there are approx 50 cement bags to 1 cubic metre (50x20=1000) or 1 bag is 0.02 cubic metres.

Quote:
is it that no two soils are alike?


Having never tried ramming any other soil, I am not sure why the compaction ratio varies. I never really tested what difference moisture content made to compaction ratio.

Homeless, I notice that you are getting a bit of breakout around the bolt holes. If you want to minimise this you can leave the bolts in when you remove the formwork, then put 2 nuts on the one end of the bolt and use 2 levers to bind them against each other. You can then unscrew the bolt out of the wall using a lever. This is quite time consuming so you may just live with the breakout and patch later.

Sorry I think my 2 cents ended up 2 dollars worth.

Bluey


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